zondag 1 juli 2012

ReLex

And then came Lex kite surfing through the gateless gate of seeing there is no self at all anywhere at all...

Ready to see how it all can unwind? Here we go!

Remember the first part happened on the Liberation Unleashed forum where my name is Life and the last part on Liberation Unleashed Gate on facebook, if your interested in this stuff, and you are, i really recommend going there, to have a look with one of the guides there at the untested assumption of there being a separate i or self.

I know the coming text is quite long, suggest you either read it in the 4 parts I'll devide it in, else it might take you quite some time, but its worth it, really...

Topic: Ego applying for destruction.

Lex: Ah, I'm in. Finally. Struggling with liberation, enlightenment, advaita etc. for about 30 years.
One of the first thoughts I had when I was introduced to spirituality was:
"This shouldn't take long, I have to see it quick and immediately, I don't want to be a seeker the rest of my life."
Well....

Now I am one of these people who I saw in my first satsangs, which I was so afraid to become like them: An eternal seeker.
So I am an "experienced seeker". I really don't know if that makes me a hard nut to crack or a piece of wet cake. We'll see.
Where I am at the moment:
It is clear that my true nature is awareness.
It is not clear that my true nature is love.
Ego is present in the form of self-consciousness.
I am investigating ego-concepts by means of "the Work" by Byron Katie.
I'd prefer to work with Elena if she is available, as I feel connected to her.
My time zone is GMT+2, and I like to work in the morning, as that is my clearest time, but we can experiment with other times of days (other moods, other "personalities").
 
Life: Well Lex time to let go of the label *seeker*. Elena will be unavailable for now, but I'll gladly guide you!
Time does not matter, reality is there always no matter what is going on. Also it doesn't matter who points, it has to be seen clearly by that one, but thats true for all guides.
What do you expect to find here'?

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Life: Oh btw have you worked with a guide here before Lex?

Life: Well Lex, whats going to happen next? Are you going to wait and postpone this till Elena comes in and hands you enlightenment on a silver plate?
What if she is run over by a bus, truck or car tomorrow? Is all hope of seeing if there is a separate person in everyday experience or not then lost? This can be seen while doing the laundry or making something to eat ( like Elena).

I know all about wanting to find the best of the best most enlightened teacher, but that is not what this is about, all that is needed is the ffing balls to actually look for yourself in the reality of right now! So after 30 years of relying on profound words of wisdom, transmission or meditation its now time to let all this go for now and have an honest look without any crutches.
Either you commit to doing this or you'll never find out... No matter who your ''working'' with, if it is Katy, Elena, Christ, Buddha or Machiel it needs to be seen there, nobody can do that for you. All that is needed is to find out if there is a seeker doing all this seeking or if the seeking and everything else that has been going on has happened as a part of the whole without a separate Lex doing this.
So what happens when you stare the possibility in the face there might really be no self at all in real life? Write it in big letters on a post it ''IS THERE REALLY A ME SEPARATE FROM LIFE/EXISTENCE/THE WHOLE?!'' of beter ''IS ER ECHT EEN IK AFGESCHEIDEN VAN HET LEVEN/BESTAAN/GEHEEL?!''

Zullen we hiervoor gaan Lex? (shall we go for it) Lets go for it, later you'll laugh your ass of about how simple it was :))

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: Hi Machiel,
I just noticed that there are 4 replies already on my mail.
I did not get notifications in my email and I checked regularly here, but just saw "0 messages".
So now I know where to look.
Sorry I did not notice the responses. Funny how it works. I was a bit irritated that I didn't get any reaction and you for the same reason. So we immediately start to make stories about each other without even knowing us. :-)
So I have a technical question:
Is there a way I can get notifications by email if there is a response?
Now I have to leave, but I'll come back to you today or tomorrow.
English or Dutch is equal to me.
We gaan ervoor. (We go for it.)

Life: Ok, recently had the same problem :) Totally below there should be the link '''subscribe topic'', that should do the trick.
looking forward to your reply. Oh and im probably the slowest typer on the block, but I'm right here ;)

Life...... Are you separate from it?

lex: Found it ...
Kijken is zo belangrijk :-) (Looking is so important)
Als je een keer goed kijkt vraag je je af hoe je het over het hoofd hebt kunnen zien. (If you take one good look you wonder how you've missed it)
Verwacht dat het hiermee ook ongeveer zo gaat. (I expect this will be about the same)
Back to English and on topic...
What do you expect to find here'? - A guide who is prepared [like me] to persevere until the very end.
The very end = absolute certainty about my true nature / end of all questions about self / complete dissolution of the question “What am I ?”
The first question I need to return to you is:
If there is no “I”, then who is investigating? Who or what is pondering “What am I ?”

Life: ok first 2 other questions that also need answering:
Oh btw have you worked with a guide here before Lex?

So what happens when you stare the possibility in the face there might really be no self at all in real life? Write it in big letters on a post it ''IS THERE REALLY A ME SEPARATE FROM LIFE/EXISTENCE/THE WHOLE?!'' of beter ''IS ER ECHT EEN IK AFGESCHEIDEN VAN HET LEVEN/BESTAAN/HET GEHEEL?!''

Please do this, write down: ''there is no self anywhere'', what comes up?

Not who is pondering but is there a who doing the pondering?

Finally so we are clear on this will work only when I ask the questions, you look in experience and then answer. Take the time needed. Also stop the other things your doing, books, meditations you have done enough, focus on this, can you do that? Lex?

Life...... Are you separate from it?

lex: I haven't worked with a guide here before.

Life said: “Not who is pondering but is there a who doing the pondering?”

That's correct, because the question “Who is pondering” already implies that there IS a self. Good point. Simple. Seen. Question dropped.

Life said: ''BESTAAT ER WERKELIJK EEN AFGESCHEIDEN IK?'' (is there really a separate I?)

spontane reacties: (spontaneous reactions)
dat voelt zo (it feels like that)
er is zeker een besef dat ik besta (there certainly is the awareness that I exist)
er is een gevoel van afgescheidenheid. Soms. Niet altijd. Wordt opgeroepen door dat statement. (there is a feeling of separateness. Sometimes. Not always. Is called to the forefront by that statement)
weerstand: dit leidt nergens toe. (resistance: this is leading nowhere.)
wat maakt het eigenlijk uit of er een zelf is of niet? (what difference does it really make if there is a self or not?)
wat zou dat voor iets moeten zijn, een zelf? (what should it be anyway, a self?)
The question “Who am I?” I can't answer, but the question “Am I ?” I can answer with 100% certainty.

- there is no self anywere ....
what comes up:
blank. nothingness.
subtle feelings of inadequacy followed by the thought: “maybe the self consists of a bundle of these feelings of inadequacy, of being not OK”
I have no idea what this self should look like or where to look for it. I know Santa Claus is an illusion, but I know where to find him. This self-illusion I can't localise. What is it? A fantasy? A conglomerate of conditioning?
restlessness....
judgement: it is selfish to be so preoccupied with getting rid of oneself. I shouldn't be so self-centered.
confidence + a little fear
dit gaat nergens over (this is nonsense)

''focus on this, can you do that? Lex?''
I just started to do some "Work" in the spirit of Byron Katie and I find it inspiring. Also I really like to attend satsangs and maybe the forthcoming SAND congress. I do this with another motivation than this work, but if you think it interferes I will stop these activities for the period of our commitment, but not wholeheartedly.
Books about advaita e.g. I can let rest, no problem.
I like to thank you for your commitment and effort, but somehow I feel that that is inappropriate or maybe even hypocrite.

Life:
We are not trying to get rid of or change anything, just to look and see if there really is a self in experience or only the thought or sense ''I''.
A little fear or fear? If there is fear no problem thats normal, this might sound weird but can you look behind this fear? Is anything there anything there having the fear?''

Byron katie wont interfere I guess the rest is not necessary at all, life is satsang, you have been going to satsangs for how long? Still your here... Whats your other motivation if I may ask?
Anyway I'm not your teacher its up to you ;) As long as you focus on this.
Thank me in the end Lex :)

Life...... Are you separate from it?

''A feeling of not being OK, is it always there or does it come and go?''
Lex: Mostly it isn't there. It's just that this sense of separation seems to have something to do with feeling inadequate. Do you think it is worth/relevant putting it under the microscope?

''We are not trying to get rid of or change anything''
Lex: I see. My formulation was wrong. It is just that this self-judgement arises: I could be doing more useful things than self-investigating, especially if it turns out that there is no such thing. I can answer myself: In that case, let's get it over with, so there is room/time for other activities.

''just to look and see if there really is a self in experience or only the thought or sense ''I''.''
Lex: There is an organism, that seems to be able to roam around independent of other emerging organisms, which is labeled "Lex" and which has learned to address itself as "I". Whatever-I-am is looking through its eyes, hearing through its ears, feeling (through) its body. So yes, I experience a self as a conscious being looking through Lex's eyes, inhabiting Lex's body. Maybe “experience” is not the right word, because I experience only sensations, not this self. Like I see my eyes only in the mirror. But because I can't experience it, doesn't mean it is not there. I just know it's there. In other words: I know that I exist beyond any doubt.

''A little fear or fear?''
Lex: It was really just a glimpse of fear. Can't remember it clearly. Can't reproduce it either at the moment.

The motivation for going to satsangs, is simply that afterwards I feel better, more harmonious, quiet, peaceful, open, etc. I find it very refreshing and feel “at home” with spiritual teachers. Also I love the truth.
I admit that I alwas have the hope in the back of my head that enlightenment might strike. :-)
when I write this down, I realise that in this way I am “leeching” on the realisation of other people.
So, yes, I'll refrain from satsangs and will look for myself. I see why this is better.

Life:
Alright good to hear you say that you will stop that habbit for now, know that is a bit difficult and not exactly what you wanted to hear.
Alright, no fear now, what was the last time you were really scared or sad for example? Anything that comes to mind clearly.

''Mostly it isn't there. It's just that this sense of separation seems to have something to do with feeling inadequate. Do you think it is worth/relevant putting it under the microscope?''
Life: Well are you really inadequate or not good enough? Or is that just a label put on certain actions or character traits by the constantly judging mind? Can you look behind the mind is anything behind it in control of it?

''There is an organism, that seems to be able to roam around independent of other emerging organisms, which is labeled "Lex" and which has learned to address itself as "I". Whatever-I-am is looking through its eyes, hearing through its ears, feeling (through) its body. So yes, I experience a self as a conscious being looking through Lex's eyes, inhabiting Lex's body. Maybe “experience” is not the right word, because I experience only sensations, not this self. Like I see my eyes only in the mirror. But because I can't experience it, doesn't mean it is not there. I just know it's there. In other words: I know that I exist beyond any doubt.''

Life: A conscious being looking through your eyes? That sounds a bit out of this world to me... Lets get real here, nice concepts but not gonna help you see if there is a self or not! Totally forget about enlightenment and what thats going to be like, including the superpowers ;) But really lets just see if there is a self at all which can be enlightened. Just to be clear, this is not about my/our truth vs your or the satsang givers concept of the truth, its about the reality of right here and right now. Describe for me the right here and right now, no stories or concepts just plain and simple.
Alright man take the time needed, no rush, first look in reality then answer...Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: Maybe I am biased by all the things I read or heard, could be, but what I found is from a sincere, fresh look. Maybe I put it in words in a clumsy way or I use “advaita speak”, but I took a honest look and this is what I saw: An organism through which I live. And I don't know if "I" can be separated from this organism. I can't say that I AM this organism, neither can I say that I am not. And I still maintain that I exist without any doubt, although I don't know WHAT I am.
The above is what I notice when I take an honest look right here, right now.
I am not interested in enlightenment or superpowers. Just in the truth and ending this compulsive search. Just that. I don't expect all my problems solved. Just some piece of mind and return to simplicity. Or is that already too much of an expectation?

Talking about fear, what comes up is not a recent fear, but a strong one, which I had when I was 15 years old. The situation: After a year of almost daily use of marihuana, I moved to Israel in a student exchange program. I was put in a family and came in a situation where I knew nobody. Also I found nobody I could relate too. I just studied and ate and slept and I was very shy and felt uncomfortable and lonely. One day I was alone in the house and I kind of lost my sense of self. I did not know what was happening. I panicked. Started to walk around in the room. I felt I had to vomit, but that didn't happen. I started to repeat my name and address in an attempt to get my identity back.
After that event I was send to a psychiatrist, was in a psychiatric ward, first in Israel, later in Holland. Back in Holland I felt totally alienated from my family, so I opted for voluntary psychatric treatment myself, believing that there I could be cured from whatever was wrong with me. The other patients in the psychiatric ward in Israel were very nice and sensitive and they were the first people I felt connected to in a long time. I remember I begged to stay there, but my parents insisted to get me back to Holland.

''Well are you really inadequate or not good enough?''
Lex: Well, like everybody, sometimes yes, mostly no. Of course sometimes something I set out to do fails.
Or is that just a label put on certain actions or character traits by the constantly judging mind?

I am lucky to have a not too judgemental mind. I just observed that the feeling of separation is somehow connected to the feeling “I'm inadequate”. One seems to evoke the other. Both don't show up a lot lately. I just mention it.

''Can you look behind the mind is anything behind it in control of it?''
Lex: Can't seem to find a controller. The mind is triggered by questions, reacts on events, and feedback by itself, associations. Sometimes something unexpected pops up out of the blue.
When I was fantasising as a child, which I did a lot, I noticed I could control my fantasies, but it was much nicer to let them evolve by itself. So there was a controller then. Also I can choose to stop breathing for a while.

I don't know if I have the right attitude in this process. I have no idea what is relevant or not, so I let me be guided by your questions like a blind man, trusting that you will lead me to the "gate". I see as my task to answer your questions as honest and profound as I can. Is that correct?
Life: Will respond more later thanks for the reply.
Indeed to ''the gate'' not through it.
What is noticed is that your trying to analyse your way into it and make this happen, or get to a permanent state. Its not like that lets keep it simple. Please describe brushing teeth and/or eating breakfast, what happens exactly? Around you, inside, outside, the body.

Life...... Are you separate from it?






Lex: Ok, I'll wait for your next response. I saw I wrote “piece of mind” instead “peace of mind”. A piece of mind I already got. :-)
By noticing me analysing, you mean that it is too abstract? Want me to be more down-to-earth? I'll try. Tomorrow I will describe having breakfast.

Life: No i mean your trying to understand your way into this instead of looking!
Do not wait for my replies to look and answer the questions.

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex:
Maybe I am biased by all the things I read or heard, could be, but what I found is from a sincere, fresh look. Maybe I put it in words in a clumsy way or I use “advaita speak”, but I took a honest look and this is what I saw:

An organism through which I live. And I don't know if "I" can be separated from this organism. I can't say that I AM this organism, neither can I say that I am not. And I still maintain that I exist without any doubt, although I don't know WHAT I am.
The above is what I notice when I take an honest look right here, right now.
Are you living life or is life living itself without a separate controler? Look.
I am not interested in enlightenment or superpowers. Just in the truth and ending this compulsive search. Just that. I don't expect all my problems solved. Just some piece of mind and return to simplicity. Or is that already too much of an expectation?
No thats ok, but search can only fall away by seeing the truth not by doing.

''Well are you really inadequate or not good enough?''
Lex: Well, like everybody, sometimes yes, mostly no. Of course sometimes something I set out to do fails indeed but is there a you? And isnt inadequate just thought after an action?

''Can you look behind the mind is anything behind it in control of it?''
Lex: Can't seem to find a controller. The mind is triggered by questions, reacts on events, and feedback by itself, associations. Sometimes something unexpected pops up out of the blue.
When I was fantasising as a child, which I did a lot, I noticed I could control my fantasies, but it was much nicer to let them evolve by itself. So there was a controller then. Also I can choose to stop breathing for a while.

''But never totally stop, try, breath will continue involuntarily. Follow the breath, are you doing it or is it just happening? Are you digesting your food? Growing your nails and hair?''
Lex: I don't know if I have the right attitude in this process. I have no idea what is relevant or not, so I let me be guided by your questions like a blind man, trusting that you will lead me to the "gate". I see as my task to answer your questions as honest and profound as I can. Is that correct?

Life: No man no, look really look into experience then answer from experience totally honest. Profound doesnt matter.

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: When I had breakfast this morning I noticed that the whole process of eating was fully automatic. It was kind of comfortable. I didn't have to do anything. All went by itself. So I see that at least the body doesn't need a chauffeur. I will investigate (by looking) if that is always the case, or that sometimes a controller is present. Until now I don't find one. Fingers are typing this text without an entity steering them. Probably some complex neurological process in the brain is “doing” it, but there is no “me” sending commands to the fingers.

The mind just reread this text and found a typing error, after which the body removed it. Again no involvement of a controller. Took a sip of coffee. Noticed. Still there is an entity observing all of this. That's me. (was typed automatically).
I'll keep looking during my daily beslommeringen. (activities)

''Are you living life or is life living itself without a separate controler? Look.''
Lex:
Thinking interferes here. Intelectually I KNOW that there is no controller, just life. This makes it harder to just look without preconception. So maybe it is better to assume that there is a controller and trying to find it?
(wordt vervolgd) (to be continued)

Life:
The first part is exactly the way to go, keep that going.
The mind just reread this text and found a typing error, after which the body removed it. Again no involvement of a controller. Took a sip of coffee. Noticed. Still there is an entity observing all of this. That's me. (was typed automatically).
Rereading of text, finding and changing of mistake, impulse to drink sip of coffee yeah, is there a self doing that? Is there really an entity/you separate from life doing this or is it just happening? Are you in control of observing/being conscious meaning even when eyes are closed your aware, your not in control of the exact moment of falling asleep and waking. although it might be typed automatically look into this, is it really there this entity Lex separate from life doing the observing?

Now does thought really interfere or is there just the thought ''I only know it intellectualy already this will interfere''. No rush but lets look at thought as well, how is it different from eating? are you in control of your next thought? For example can you not think of a yellow seagul reading this? Moreover can you again look behind thought, anything there?
Do not assume anything! Not what me or anyone else says, be sceptical, check in experience... Keep it going mister.

Life...... Are you separate from it?

''Rereading of text, finding and changing of mistake, impulse to drink sip of coffee yeah, is there a self doing that?''
lex: No. I can say: "I am doing that" or "It just happens" or "Life is acting", but what really happens is much too complicated for me to understand, so all these sentences are gross simplifications of what actually happens, and so all three are in fact lies. “I” can't take a sip of coffee as much as “I” can't grow a plant. This self is an illusion, a construct, a ghost. But if one believes in ghosts, they seem very real.

I see this ghost is foisted upon this organism and now there is a feeling of powerlessness. There is no way to get rid of it.
What I clearly see is that all beliefs are made-up and gross simplifications of reality, and that includes the believe in a self.
So the only thing that is left is: ?

Life:
Please respond to every question!

If there is no self how to either see or get rid of it? We say sense of self is there, take a look if a self is really there? Its an untested belief, so lets test!

So there you go it seems very real, it does seem real also here. This I which feels so real is like a label, can you see that thought labels everything? Like chair, computer, house, tree, car, cloud, thought which are real but also the Joker or the Hulk, the images are real, the actors are real, Joker and Hulk are fiction. self is just the same, thoughts are real, body is real, self isnt, trough conditioning self or Lex feels very real, but is it?
I cannot fill in the big ? your gonna need to look, can it be true? All that is typed here is to help looking to occur there.

Another example is: Look at the label library, there are of books, bookshelves, librarians, computers, but are any of them library or is library only a word for communication? Look, isnt self the same?
Is the thought I real or just a thought? Does thought think?
Ok man, take your time, only answer when absolutely certain then report back, trust the process, truth will be seen...Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex:
If there is no self how to either see or get rid of it?
Library is a good example. A library is a collection of books. A self is a collection of ideas, reflections, memories + a "sense of self".
What exactly am I looking for? This sense of self appears and disappears. Nothing seems to be constant. There is a sense of control, but no controller, there is a sense of a central processing unit, but no center.
This “self”, as far as it exists, seems some kind of mechanism/process meant to interact with others (other selves). To please them or manipulate them. Processing data and mentally playing out different possible scenarios/conversations.

''This I which feels so real is like a label, can you see that thought labels everything?''
Lex: Yes. The word “table” evokes a template in my mind to which a set of certain objects fit. The word “Machiel” evokes a vague impression of a male figure labeled “seen it”. The word “Ik” evokes some subtle sensations in the body and sometimes some assoiation with my image in the mirror. But the essence is: It is a label. If it is pointing to an object, this object is the body. (I purposefully avoid to say “my body” to not create a circular reference.) This body in turn is also a label for a series of impressions and ideas.
The big ? need no filling in. Not knowing is OK.

''Is the thought I real or just a thought? Does thought think?''
Lex: The thought “I” is just a thought. Thought can not think.
That what thinks I can call the mind, but I can also not call it anything at all. Just don't mind it. :-) Not label it.

Because I don't know where these thoughts come from.
What is strange is that I feel free to use the word “I”, while it is clear now that that is just a matter of conversational convention.
This way of looking at “I” as just a label is difficult, because I'm not used to it. It is like I have to practise it, to remind myself: “Hey hello, "I" is just a label, I don't really exist”. There is a deep habit to believe in the reality of this structure, and I feel “something” blocking full awareness, resisting to see what already has been seen now.
Another voice says: “So there is no such thing as a person here. So what?”
(wordt vervolgd) (to be continued)
See what tomorrow brings.

''If there is no self how to either see or get rid of it?
Library is a good example. A library is a collection of books. A self is a collection of ideas, reflections, memories + a "sense of self".
What exactly am I looking for? This sense of self appears and disappears. Nothing seems to be constant. There is a sense of control, but no controller, there is a sense of a central processing unit, but no center.
This “self”, as far as it exists, seems some kind of mechanism/process meant to interact with others (other selves). To please them or manipulate them. Processing data and mentally playing out different possible scenarios/conversations.''

Life: There is no such thing as library and no such thing as self, it are both just labels. It does not matter what it seems to be like only if its really there or not. I have the feeling you are trying to get a perfect understanding of it first, this wont help to actually see if its there or not. Its like with eating, seeing that eating and digesting happens without consciously doing it.

''This I which feels so real is like a label, can you see that thought labels everything?''
Lex: Yes. The word “table” evokes a template in my mind to which a setm of certain objects fit. The word “Machiel” evokes a vague impression of a male figure labeled “seen it”. The word “Ik” evokes some subtle sensations in the body and sometimes some assoiation with my image in the mirror. But the essence is: It is a label. If it is pointing to an object, this object is the body. (I purposefully avoid to say “my body” to not create a circular reference.) This body in turn is also a label for a series of impressions and ideas.
The big ? need no filling in. Not knowing is OK.
Life: ok great, but is it your mind? difficult processes going on but look beyond it, is anything there?
Is the thought I real or just a thought? Does thought think?

Lex: ''The thought “I” is just a thought.''
Thought can not think.
That what thinks I can call the mind, but I can also not call it anything at all. Just don't mind it. :-) Not label it.
Because I don't know where these thoughts come from.
What is strange is that I feel free to use the word “I”, while it is clear now that that is just a matter of conversational convention.

This way of looking at “I” as just a label is difficult, because I'm not used to it. It is like I have to practise it, to remind myself: “Hey hello, "I" is just a label, I don't really exist”. There is a deep habit to believe in the reality of this structure, and I feel “something” blocking full awareness, resisting to see what already has been seen now.
Another voice says: “So there is no such thing as a person here. So what?”

Life:
Thinking happens, seeing happens, hearing happens, reading happens, typping happens, sleeping happens just like raining happens, sunshine happens and wind happens, all just life flowing, is anything separate from this there controlling everything? Is there really something there behind controlling thought? Look! (allow looking to occur, are you doing the looking or ...)
Of course the word I can be used freely that doesnt change, else communication becomes very weird ;)

I did not tell you to stop labelling, I tell you to look if the label I points to something real or not. If I is indeed only a label that means there is no I at all.
Look for yourself what the implications would be if there were no self. Make a list of what this would be like, look into the world as if it were already true...
Keep going, going into nature would be a good idea or in your case probably the beach, and take a good look at the natural flow of life, is there a separate self in the seagul? Is it doing anything to see what he really is or to improve himself? Isn't it just a part of the flow of life? Is there anything separate controlling nature? As you walk look, who is in control of where exactly the next step will land, watch all the senses and thoughts, are you doing them or are they just happening as a part of life?

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: I've seen there is no I. It's simply a label pointing at nothing real.

I will keep looking intensively through this new perspective until it becomes totally clear and natural. It feels now vulnerable and easy to relapse into the old believe. I had some fears, but they didn't come from the new perspective itself, but from all the stories I heard about massive shifts that could happen once “IT” is seen and the fears that are supposed to go along with that. In the end I peacefully fell asleep, albeit a little late.

all just life flowing, is anything separate from this there controlling everything?
Lex: No.

Life: ''Look for yourself what the implications would be if there were no self.''

Lex: Sounds a bit contradictory :-) , but I understand what you imply.

Life: ''Make a list of what this would be like''

Lex: I will and I'm curious what will be on that list. No idea, yet.

Life: ''look into the world as if it were already true...''

Lex: It is true. I see that. The system/brains/wetware/program/I just has to get used to it. Open up to it.

Life: ''Is the seagul doing anything to see what he really is or to improve himself?''

Lex: They are constantly trying to improve their flying skills. 8^) Practising a lot. But I see your point.
OK, I will have a busy time, so probably will not post until next week. Will try to create the list.
I feel that now it is OK to thank you for what you did until now. *heart*

Life: alright lex, one quick thing it is not about believing anything for real, about seeing what is real.

So also when busy, look is there a you being bussy or just being busy?
take care *heart*

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: I read one question wrong. I read: “Is it your mind?”, but the question that is more effective is “is it your mind?” That works like a koan. I'll keep it in mind.

Life:
No dont keep it in mind, look, is it?
Stop trying to figure it out, you can't! First look then understand... Do or do not there is no try, although doing does not mean effort, just plain seeing without using the mind to make it so. Look were you there before birth? Were you there just after birth? Go back to the first memory, the first feeling ''I am'' where was Lex then?

Now quiet the mind totally... If it wont thank it for all it has done, appreciate it, tell it that it has done enough then ask it to relax... Now look beyond, where were you before birth and will you be after death? Before and after the birth and death of universe/existence/matter? Look now, when mind relaxes (dont try to force it), if it only relaxes one instance appreciate it again... Be relaxed about it... No destruction of ego, there is no ego, is there a separate iLex?

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: "Mind" is a label. Thoughts are arising from something unknown and disappearing in the same unknown nothingness to never appear again. As does every moment. The self as controller has gone, now is left the concept of a giant neural network that controls this organism. But also this is a concept. It is not what I see.
What I see is experiences coming and going. And even "experience" is a label, albeit very general.

''No dont keep it in mind, look, is it?'' [my mind]
Lex: Mind is a label. Thoughts come and go. Sometimes a thought/feeling/notion arises of claiming ownership. It's got a 'sticky' feeling to it. Do you want me to report the contents of the thoughts/feelings/notions that arise, like I am doing now? Is that relevant?

''Look were you there before birth? Were you there just after birth? Go back to the first memory, the first feeling ''I am'' where was Lex then?''
Lex: Am unable to do that. I remember some observation from early childhood: I noticed that I felt like I had lived for eternity and at the same time I am always fresh and new. Can't really get this notion back now, there is some resistance. But I can vivdly remember that it was there. And, although I can't feel it now, I know the feeling comes from a true source. I can't feel, but I can connect to it. It is the feeling of being alive.

''Now quiet the mind totally... If it wont thank it for all it has done, appreciate it, tell it that it has done enough then ask it to relax... Now look beyond, where were you before birth and will you be after death? Before and after the birth and death of universe/existence/matter? Look now, when mind relaxes (dont try to force it), if it only relaxes one instance appreciate it again... Be relaxed about it... No destruction of ego, there is no ego, is there a separate iLex?''
lex: I'll come back to that. I want to find a quiet moment to do that. The mind says: “It is impossible to know”.
At this very moment it feels awkward to use the word "I".

Lex: "Mind" is a label. Thoughts are arising from something unknown and disappearing in the same unknown nothingness to never appear again. As does every moment. The self as controller has gone, now is left the concept of a giant neural network that controls this organism. But also this is a concept. It is not what I see.
What I see is experiences coming and going. And even "experience" is a label, albeit very general.
Was there ever a self controling what happens?
No dont keep it in mind, look, is it? [my mind]
Mind is a label. Thoughts come and go. Sometimes a thought/feeling/notion arises of claiming ownership. It's got a 'sticky' feeling to it. Do you want me to report the contents of the thoughts/feelings/notions that arise, like I am doing now? Is that relevant?

Life: Mind is label, is self a label? Thoughts labeling experiences as your experience?
And NO anytime soon I'm gonna have to bring my zenstick and hit you on the head... How many times do I have to tell you its not about thoughts, feelings, sensations? I want you to look/check/find out in the direct experience of now what is actually there, what is actually happening right now! Tell me that... Are you seeing right now? Are you aware right now? Are you hearing right now? Are you feeling the chair and/or the ground beneath your feet? Are there thoughts? I'm not joking! answer all the ? ? ? ? ? here.



Lex: ''I'll come back to that. I want to find a quiet moment to do that. The mind says: “It is impossible to know”.
At this very moment it feels awkward to use the word "I".

Life: I understand you think you need a quiet moment, that became a habit but quietness or not the feeling ''I am'' is always there first before anything else. Where would you be when all thoughts and sensations fall away?

Life...... Are you separate from it?


Life: So lex how are things looking today?
One question today, can you describe the experience of a new born baby when eyes open for the first time? Really imagine this, what would his experience be like?

Lex: Only sensory impressions, I imagine, and a "sense of being" without a sense of self.
Absolute knowinglessness. Clueless.
Natural trust.
Total surrender (having no other possiblility)
I realise that all this is still the case, just a thin layer of "understanding" is superimposed on this basic nothingness.

Life:
Right nothing is labeled yet, no thoughts labeling. Only direct experience. The last bit does not really make sense, spiritual blabla wont help. Now nothing is really different only there are thoughts labeling everything including the body and thoughts as me. All there for functioning and communication to happen. Does that mean there really is a self separate from life? Look now, what is actually happening right now? Just take a good look at your immediate experience right now and tell me what is happening...Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: I see my language is too complicated. With “thin layer of "understanding"” I mean also: labeling by thinking." I see that real understanding is not possible. The whole event (life) is one big mystery. Too complicated for mind.
I find it hard to investigate during my daily life. To go around my daily business and look for self or no-self at the same time.
All there for functioning and communication to happen.Yes, just for that. Maybe we overdo it. A lot more communication that necessary. To continuously keep the illusion of me and the other alive?

''Does that mean there really is a self separate from life?''
A self separate from life is absolutely impossible. Is there a self anyway? That is the question/quest.

''Look now, what is actually happening right now?''
Always is happening the same. Experiences. Sensory perceptions, feelings, thougths, movements.
Sometimes there is the feeling that it is just me that exists, like in a dream, and that is a scary and lonely feeling.
This could be the source of wanting to be someone with others around. Though while I am asleep, I never care.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
I cheated. I went to a satsang of Unmani and I don't regret it. It didn't interfere at all with the “work” we're doing here. In the contrary.
I went with a friend who borrowed my "Gateless Gatecrashers" and who saw immediately upon reading that there is no me.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
There is still this pending question.
''Look for yourself what the implications would be if there were no self. Make a list of what this would be like, look into the world as if it were already true...''
Lex: It is already clear that there is no such thing as a self, apart from as a mental construct or at its best a social tool.
The only difference until now is, that there seems to be somewhat less thoughts, a little more clarity, like the windows have just been cleaned. Maybe the full impact hasn't arrived yet, or maybe this is all. Who knows?

So to look what the implications would be if there were no self, I would first have to imagine one, pretend that it really exists, identify with it and from this identification imagine that it doesn't. I'm afraid I'm not capable of such a tour-de-force.
Anyway, if there is a change it is so subtle that it isn't noticed (yet?).
In the mean time I (?) keep looking. Looking. And looking. Just looking. Maybe not even for a self or no-self. Just looking.

When I see the original subject: "Ego applying for destruction." - I remember that I found that a funny tltle. Now I find it kind of weird and empty, nietszeggend. (insignificant) So something must have changed.

There is still some hope that suddenly there will be this insight that explains everything.
I start to assume that that hope is totally idle.

Life: Possibly, over the whole of this thread quite a lot of questions have been left unanswered/not looked at which leaves me unsure where exactly your at.

''Always is happening the same. Experiences. Sensory perceptions, feelings, thougths, movements.
Sometimes there is the feeling that it is just me that exists, like in a dream, and that is a scary and lonely feeling.
This could be the source of wanting to be someone with others around. Though while I am asleep, I never care.''
Life: The first bit, about direct experience thats where its at, not about how it should be or you think it is. So, Always is happening the same. Experience. Sensory perceptions, feelings, thougths, movements.''

All real and happening, where is the self in all of that? Are you controling it? Where does self end and existence begin?
Look at a tree or a plant or any animal, is there a self in there? Are they trying to become better or get rid of anything? Does the tree try to become one with its root?

 ''I see my language is too complicated. With “thin layer of "understanding"” I mean also: labeling by thinking. I see that real understanding is not possible. The whole event (life) is one big mystery. Too complicated for mind.
I find it hard to investigate during my daily life. To go around my daily business and look for self or no-self at the same time.''
Life: Thats a good observation, it cannot be done with mind/thoughts, so in fact dont believe a thing i say but see/check/find if what i say is true.

By investigate i dont mean look for self, it means check if it is indeed there, are you controling that thought, breath, step, fart, like that. I mean right now this instance words are read, thoughts are there about it and what to reply, seeing, hearing, touch, smelling but is there also a thinker, seeer, hearer, toucher and smeller? Is self selfing or life life-ing?

''A self separate from life is absolutely impossible. Is there a self anyway? That is the question/quest.''
Life: Yeah but not a question or quest to be solved like a puzzle with a missing piece, just an investigation if there is indeed a missing piece missing in the first place... The difference between reading gateless gatecrashers like the next non-duality book which might do the trick or actualy investigating in the immediacy of right now if what is indicated is really true.

''It is already clear that there is no such thing as a self, apart from as a mental construct or at its best a social tool.
The only difference until now is, that there seems to be somewhat less thoughts, a little more clarity, like the windows have just been cleaned. Maybe the full impact hasn't arrived yet, or maybe this is all. Who knows?
So to look what the implications would be if there were no self, I would first have to imagine one, pretend that it really exists, identify with it and from this identification imagine that it doesn't. I'm afraid I'm not capable of such a tour-de-force.
Anyway, if there is a change it is so subtle that it isn't noticed (yet?).
In the mean time I (?) keep looking. Looking. And looking. Just looking. Maybe not even for a self or no-self. Just looking.''
Life: No dont make it complicated, use your imagination, look trough the lense, what do you imagine it will be like? You cannot go wrong here, what do you think it will be like?
Are you doing the looking/awaring/observing/consciousnessing?
lex wrote: ''When I see the original subject: "Ego applying for destruction." - I remember that I found that a funny tltle. Now I find it kind of weird and empty, nietszeggend. So something must have changed.''

Life: Nothing changes, nothing to destroy, just a shift in perspective, its either true there is a self or there isn't a self!

''There is still some hope that suddenly there will be this insight that explains everything.
I start to assume that that hope is totally idle.''
Life: First its seen then understood not the other way around, thats right.
So lex, your seeing the gate, now go into nature, look around, look closely how everything moves and grows and functions, how life happens, is there a self anywhere controling what happens'? Go.

Life...... Are you separate from it?

''which leaves me unsure where exactly your at.''
Lex: Here the same.
I've seen that life is far too complicated to be understood and that I, as a separate entity, am a mere concept. This organism labeled Lex is uninhabited. There is no entity living in it's head controlling it.

''All real and happening, where is the self in all of that?''
Lex: It pops up sometimes as a feeling, "sense of being", or as a thought with "I" in it.

''Where does self end and existence begin?''
Lex: Existence doesn't begin. It just is. The question "where does self end?" makes no sense to me at the moment.
A self can't be found. It's an abstract concept. An idea. In front of me is a computerscreen. It exists. I can see it. I don't see a self.
What exactly do you mean with self? What would be your definition of a self?

''Are you controling it?''
Lex: No.

''Look at a tree or a plant or any animal, is there a self in there?''
Lex: I have no idea. Probably not. Maybe a "sense of self" or a knowing that it exists. But I doubt that there is a feeling of being seperate from the rest of existence.

''Are you controling that thought, breath, step, fart, like that. I mean right now this instance words are read, thoughts are there about it and what to reply, seeing, hearing, touch, smelling but is there also a thinker, seeer, hearer, toucher and smeller? Is self selfing or life life-ing?''
Lex: Life is life-ing. If there is anything that could be a self it is life. One might say: I am life.

''Yeah but not a question or quest to be solved like a puzzle with a missing piece, just an investigation if there is indeed a missing piece missing in the first place... The difference between reading gateless gatecrashers like the next non-duality book which might do the trick or actualy investigating in the immediacy of right now if what is indicated is really true.''
Lex: I didn't read the Gatecrashers. I lend it to a friend. I wanted to go in the process as unbiased as possible.
No, there is no piece missing. A self is not needed to complete the puzzle of life. The puzzle of life is complete and unsolvable.

''Is it clear or is it seen?''
Lex: Actually I don't know. It is seen that there is no self, but if it is fully clear (as clear as it can get) I don't know.

''what do you think it will be like?''
Lex: Clear, thoughtless, effortless, lovingly, peaceful, indifferent, intimate, detached, without doubt about who/what I am. And free. Or maybe no difference at all. There is more and more not-knowing, and I expect that to only increase.

''Are you doing the looking/awaring/observing/consciousnessing?''
Lex: I am not DOING it. But I am aware. If I look carefully, I see that awareness is coupled to the idea of "me" to construct the thought/sense "I am aware".

''Nothing changes, nothing to destroy, just a shift in perspective''
Lex: Yes. Nothing to destroy. No destroyer either. No ego, no destruction. The question is: If this shift has happened, if it is seen there is no me, who would know? Would I be informed: "Hello, Lex, the shift has happened!" ?
If it is seen there is no me, should always a shift happen? Should anything happen?

''So lex, you're seeing the gate''
Lex: Am I? I just see that there is no self. What is the gate? Acknowledging that that's it and continue "my" life? (Don't know how to say that without using "I" or "me". If I say: "Allow life to continue" it sounds even worse.)
Allow this realisation to deepen?
Abiding in not-understanding?
No idea where to go from here.

Lex: Today I got a glimpse of ego. It is a bunch of conditionings, traumas, programs, defence mechanisms, fear/desire-based attitudes and behaviours. And when it was in focus it appeared very strong and undissolvable, unchangeable.

lex wrote: ''I've seen that life is far too complicated to be understood and that I, as a separate entity, am a mere concept. This organism labeled Lex is uninhabited. There is no entity living in it's head controlling it.''
Life: So is there a self anywhere at all?
All real and happening, where is the self in all of that?

lex wrote: ''It pops up sometimes as a feeling, "sense of being", or as a thought with "I" in it.''
Life: Feeling, sense, thoughts yeah, does that mean a self pops up for real? Can a self be sometimes here and other times not?

Life wrote: ''Where does self end and existence begin?''
Lex: Existence doesn't begin. It just is. The question "where does self end?" makes no sense to me at the moment.
A self can't be found. It's an abstract concept. An idea. In front of me is a computerscreen. It exists. I can see it. I don't see a self.
What exactly do you mean with self? What would be your definition of a self?

Life: That's right it doesn't make sense, where could it be? My definition is that it isn't, is that true?
Look at a tree or a plant or any animal, is there a self in there?

''I have no idea. Probably not. Maybe a "sense of self" or a knowing that it exists. But I doubt that there is a feeling of being seperate from the rest of existence.''
Life: Do they need to do anything to be as they are?
Are you controling that thought, breath, step, fart, like that. I mean right now this instance words are read, thoughts are there about it and what to reply, seeing, hearing, touch, smelling but is there also a thinker, seeer, hearer, toucher and smeller? Is self selfing or life life-ing?

''Life is life-ing. If there is anything that could be a self it is life. One might say: I am life.''
Life: How is this I separate from life?
Yeah but not a question or quest to be solved like a puzzle with a missing piece, just an investigation if there is indeed a missing piece missing in the first place... The difference between reading gateless gatecrashers like the next non-duality book which might do the trick or actualy investigating in the immediacy of right now if what is indicated is really true.''

Lex wrote: ''I didn't read the Gatecrashers. I lend it to a friend. I wanted to go in the process as unbiased as possible.
No, there is no piece missing. A self is not needed to complete the puzzle of life. The puzzle of life is complete and unsolvable.''
Life: Is there a piece called self? Investigate!
Is it clear or is it seen?

''Actually I don't know. It is seen that there is no self, but if it is fully clear (as clear as it can get) I don't know.''
Life: Either it is seen or it isn't, it is there or it isn't, there are no stages of seeing!
what do you think it will be like?

''Clear, thoughtless, effortless, lovingly, peaceful, indifferent, intimate, detached, without doubt about who/what I am. And free.
Or maybe no difference at all. There is more and more not-knowing, and I expect that to only increase.''
Life: Hmm only possitive things there, isn't that a bit weird? No man everything is there also anger, sadness and frustration, is anything there behind all of it? Is there an I to be who/what?
Are you doing the looking/awaring/observing/consciousnessing?''

''I am not DOING it. But I am aware. If I look carefully, I see that awareness is coupled to the idea of "me" to construct the thought/sense "I am aware".
So how can you be aware? Doesn't that mean there is awareness without an I?''
Life: Nothing changes, nothing to destroy, just a shift in perspective.

''Yes. Nothing to destroy. No destroyer either. No ego, no destruction. The question is: If this shift has happened, if it is seen there is no me, who would know? Would I be informed: "Hello, Lex, the shift has happened!" ?
If it is seen there is no me, should always a shift happen? Should anything happen?''
Life: Don't ask me, find out, is there a you who knows, or just a label ''you''?

''Am I? I just see that there is no self. What is the gate? Acknowledging that that's it and continue "my" life? (Don't know how to say that without using "I" or "me". If I say: "Allow life to continue" it sounds even worse.)
Allow this realisation to deepen?
Abiding in not-understanding?
No idea where to go from here.''
Life: If you would've really seen there is no self the question where to go from here would not arise at all. You understand there can be no self, thats good, now it needs to be seen. Cannot make you see it. We can keep going back and forth forever but it needs to be seen, did you go into nature? Nothing needs to be changed or done to see this, if its true it can be seen right now! Stop thinking how it would or should be like and investigate like a scientist would do.
When just sitting, staring out of the window doesn't everything just go on inside(body) and outside without doing anything?

''Today I got a glimpse of ego. It is a bunch of conditionings, traumas, programs, defence mechanisms, fear/desire-based attitudes and behaviours. And when it was in focus it appeared very strong and undissolvable, unchangeable.''
Life: Is it a bunch of these things? All of that is there, is there really something there behind which is a collection of all these things? Is there any such thing as an ego or just a thought labeling those things ego ''undissolvable and unchangeable''. Is there something there to dissolve or change? Really?! Find out!
Fear is a defence mechanism, what is it protecting?

Life...... Are you separate from it?

Lex: Some eagerness. I'm on the lookout for your mails. Starts to be an important part of my life, it seems. Investigating/looking throughout daily life comes more natural. Even while in contact with other people.

''So is there a self anywhere at all?''
Lex: I am. Yes. Sure. But WHAT I am, I have no idea. If you tell me what to look for, I will tell you if it's here.
A living being? Yes, present.
Awareness? Present.
A controller? Absent.
A soul? Don't know. Same thing: If I know what to look for I might find it.

''Feeling, sense, thoughts yeah, does that mean a self pops up for real? Can a self be sometimes here and other times not?
Lex: I see that "sense of self", "awareness of existence" doesn't prove that there IS a self.
And it comes and goes.

''My definition is that it isn't, is that true?''
Lex: A tautology is always true.

''Do they [trees] need to do anything to be as they are?''
Lex: Silly question. No, of course not. Neither do people. I admit that the latter is less obvious to me.

''How is this I separate from life?''
Lex: Thinking separates. Creates the "I". When there is no thinking, there is no separation, no "I". Just experience. Life unfolding. Thinking separates the body from the rest of the world. Like it creates objects from sensory perceptions.
Real objects, like trees and flowers and bodies, and imaginary (not based on sensory input) objects like ideas, concepts, "me" and this very sentence itself.

''Is there a piece called self? Investigate!''
Lex: I don't know what I am looking for as well that I don't know WHAT is looking for it.

''Either it is seen or it isn't, it is there or it isn't, there are no stages of seeing!''
Lex: I see that. Weirdly enough, it feels like a choice. Like I can choose to acknowledge that I have seen that I don't exist as a separate being or not. And put an end to the search.

''everything is there also anger, sadness and frustration, is anything there behind all of it? Is there an I to be who/what? ''
Lex: So nothing will change, except that the idea of a separate "me" is gone. No shift in perception either?
What is behind all of it is a living perception. It is alive, it is aware and it is ME.

''So how can you be aware? Doesn't that mean there is awareness without an I?''
Lex: I am not aware, rather awareness is what I am. In this awareness that I am the notion that I exist can arise.

''is there a you who knows, or just a label ''you''?
Lex: I start to seriously doubt if I have seen that there is no "I". At first it seemed so simple. There are solid things and there are concepts. Solid things are real, concepts aren't. The idea of a person/ego/me is a concept, ergo: it doesn't exsist. Seen. The "me" is a phantom. Is that all what you wanted to point out to me? Because that is seen weeks ago. There is just the idea that there is more, that this can't be all, it can't be that simple, a shift has to happen, a gate has to appear and passed through. Also your relentless ongoing questioning and testing if I've really seen it, makes me doubt, but if this is all then we can stop the process here.

- Okay - Sorry for the outburst. I leave it in, won't delete it. It's part of the process.

''If you would've really seen there is no self the question where to go from here would not arise at all.''
Lex: Yes. So obvious.

''did you go into nature?''
Lex: Yes. Dunes, sea. On the sea.

''Stop thinking how it would or should be like and investigate like a scientist would do.''
Lex: I wouldn't know how that would be, how to do that.

''When just sitting, staring out of the window doesn't everything just go on inside(body) and outside without doing anything?''
Lex: Yes. As is with cleaning the dishes, typing on a keyboard. I will observe/investigate if there are situations in which there is an idea/notion of somebody doing something. Probably in stressful situations it might be the case.
Just for the "seeing", because it is already obvious that when I find somebody doing something it is just a way of labeling what is happening in a certain way.
I feel I have to double-check all the time what I've really seen and what comes from advaita-stuff in my head.
The problem is that although the advaita-stuff is true, as an untested belief it can actually obscure the truth.

''Is it a bunch of these things?''
Lex: These "things" appear one at the time, so "bunch" is a label, a thought. Doesn't need to reflect a truth.

''All of that is there, is there really something there behind which is a collection of all these things?''
Lex: No, all these things are there potentially. I don't know if they are connected or not. I don't know what they actually are. Ego is a label, a synonyme for "bunch" in this case. Same applies. Thought. Idea. Collection.

''Is there something there to dissolve or change?''
Lex: I believe so, but I don't know. As I said before, I am working with The Work to find hidden beliefs, that are obstructing sound/happy functioning. Maybe seeing through the basic belief in "me" is a shortcut.
I see that I start to stop believing many thoughts. BTW: The Work is interrupted during this process. I am not involved in the moment.

''Fear is a defence mechanism, what is it protecting?''
Lex: Is it? I don't know. The next time fear arises, I will have a look if it is protecting something and if so, what.
Normally fear comes up when an organism is threathened to get wounded or killed.
lex wrote: ''Some eagerness. I'm on the lookout for your mails. Starts to be an important part of my life, it seems. Investigating/looking throughout daily life comes more natural. Even while in contact with other people.

''So is there a self anywhere at all?''
Lex wrote: ''I am. Yes. Sure. But WHAT I am, I have no idea. If you tell me what to look for, I will tell you if it's here.
A living being? Yes, present.
Awareness? Present.
A controller? Absent.
A soul? Don't know. Same thing: If I know what to look for I might find it.''

Life: Some anger came and went here, does that mean I am in control of that? No need to look for anything, only need to see if it is there or not controling what happens...

Feeling, sense, thoughts yeah, does that mean a self pops up for real? Can a self be sometimes here and other times not?

''I see that "sense of self", "awareness of existence" doesn't prove that there IS a self.
And it comes and goes.''
Life: What comes and goes?
My definition is that it isn't, is that true?

''A tautology is always true.''
Life: Thats not the point, have you seen it to be so in everyday life without doing?
How is this I separate from life?

''Thinking separates. Creates the "I". When there is no thinking, there is no separation, no "I". Just experience. Life unfolding. Thinking separates the body from the rest of the world. Like it creates objects from sensory perceptions.
Real objects, like trees and flowers and bodies, and imaginary (not based on sensory input) objects like ideas, concepts, "me" and this very sentence itself.''

Life: Does that mean thinking needs to be stopped?
Is there a piece called self? Investigate!

''I don't know what I am looking for as well that I don't know WHAT is looking for it.''
Life: Is there a WHAT?
Either it is seen or it isn't, it is there or it isn't, there are no stages of seeing!

''I see that. Weirdly enough, it feels like a choice. Like I can choose to acknowledge that I have seen that I don't exist as a separate being or not. And put an end to the search.''

Life: Is there something prior to it all making choices or does choice happen based on conditioning? Did you choose to dislike eating sprouts and like fries?
everything is there also anger, sadness and frustration, is anything there behind all of it? Is there an I to be who/what?

''So nothing will change, except that the idea of a separate "me" is gone. No shift in perception either?
What is behind all of it is a living perception. It is alive, it is aware and it is ME.''
Life: Nothing needs to change to see what is true. There is perception, there is awareness, how is it you? How is there a ME and a me? Stop clinging to this concept of being Consciousness/Awareness, are you in control of when it comes and goes?
is there a you who knows, or just a label ''you''?

''I start to seriously doubt if I have seen that there is no "I". At first it seemed so simple. There are solid things and there are concepts. Solid things are real, concepts aren't. The idea of a person/ego/me is a concept, ergo: it doesn't exsist. Seen. The "me" is a phantom. Is that all what you wanted to point out to me? Because that is seen weeks ago. There is just the idea that there is more, that this can't be all, it can't be that simple, a shift has to happen, a gate has to appear and passed through. Also your relentless ongoing questioning and testing if I've really seen it, makes me doubt, but if this is all then we can stop the process here.
- Okay - Sorry for the outburst. I leave it in, won't delete it. It's part of the process.''

Life: It is simpler than simple, nothing to understand, change or do to see whats really happens. Like holding an imaginary orange, close your eyes and imagine holding it, smell it, feel its size and form, peel it, taste it...


Open eyes, where did it go?
Or like sinterklaas once seen to be dad, grandpa or teacher never seen as real again...
So is self existing in any form shape or way?
Was there ever one, lex?
Stop thinking how it would or should be like and investigate like a scientist would do.

''I wouldn't know how that would be, how to do that.''
Life: A scientist doesnt assume anything and only looks what really happens.
When just sitting, staring out of the window doesn't everything just go on inside(body) and outside without doing anything?

''Yes. As is with cleaning the dishes, typing on a keyboard. I will observe/investigate if there are situations in which there is an idea/notion of somebody doing something. Probably in stressful situations it might be the case.
Just for the "seeing", because it is already obvious that when I find somebody doing something it is just a way of labeling what is happening in a certain way.
I feel I have to double-check all the time what I've really seen and what comes from advaita-stuff in my head. The problem is that although the advaita-stuff is true, as an untested belief it can actually obscure the truth.''
Life: good, is it a bunch of these things?

''These "things" appear one at the time, so "bunch" is a label, a thought. Doesn't need to reflect a truth.''
Life: right there, all of that is there, is there really something there behind which is a collection of all these things?

''No, all these things are there potentially. I don't know if they are connected or not. I don't know what they actually are. Ego is a label, a synonyme for "bunch" in this case. Same applies. Thought. Idea. Collection.''
Life: Right so never really there
Is there something there to dissolve or change?

''believe so, but I don't know. As I said before, I am working with The Work to find hidden beliefs, that are obstructing sound/happy functioning. Maybe seeing through the basic belief in "me" is a shortcut.
I see that I start to stop believing many thoughts. BTW: The Work is interrupted during this process. I am not involved in the moment.''

Life: Is any thought ever ultimately true? or only when seen as your thought?
Fear is a defence mechanism, what is it protecting?

''Is it? I don't know. The next time fear arises, I will have a look if it is protecting something and if so, what. Normally fear comes up when an organism is threathened to get wounded or killed.''

Life: Yes, but is there a separate self to protect though?

Life...... Are you separate from it?
------------------------------------------------------------------



Here is what came on facebook:

Topic: lex do you exist?

Lex: I exist. Lex doesn't. Just as a label for an appearance.

Machiel: both are labels, anyway question on the forum: do you exist in any way or form?
Machiel: did you ever, lex?

Lex: I exist. Can't doubt that.
Lex: Not in a way or as a from, but I DO exist.

Machiel: There is the whole existence, how are you separate from it?

Lex: Let's go another path:
Today I realised that there is this weird and strong conditioning to see myself as some entity living in a head, controlling the body and looking out from it's eyes. I know it is absurd and incorrect, but this notion is pretty strong.

Machiel: in what way do you exist?

Lex: To doubt my existence I have to exist, isn't it?
But that doesn't say anything about WHAT or WHO I am.

Machiel: there is an assumption there is a who or what if your not all other things, but how is it you? Do you control when your aware?
you said on the forum there was seen there is no self, how is ''what is left'' I?

Lex: There indeed doesn't need to be a who or what. There is a sense of existence, an "awareness of existence", which I attach the label "I" to, but it is nothing personal.
Hm. I answered before your question. :-)

Machiel: yeah sounds great :) is this seen beyond the concept? without thinking about it?

Lex: Yes, and a BIG resistance to admit it.
Something doesn't want to end the process, it seems.

Machiel: resistance is there, its there but is anything behind having it?
does it have to be admitted to make it so?
allow resistance to be there, honor it no matter how that sounds, then it will go like it came, was it your resistance?

Machiel: is it?

Lex: Seems a fight has to be fought. Like there are two concepts struggling with each other. The old concept of the watcher in the tower and the new vision that there is no-one in the tower. Confusion. Let's see what appears after a night's sleep.

Machiel: No fight necesarry, its not about one concept vs. another, look to see which one is true in experience! Is the I concept/label you? Can it struggle? It is not about what appears [after a night], always conciousness, senses, world and thoughts and a sense of self appear, but does that mean there is a self separate from existence?

Machiel: another thing, i noticed your quite good at skipping answering questions here and on the forum, try not doing that its not helping. did you do the thing with orange on the forum?

Lex: Huh? I am not aware that I am skipping answering questions. Funny. In the contrary: I have the feeling that I am almost too meticulously try to answer each question. So what questions did I leave unanswered? Apart from the ones directly here above which I will answer ASAP.

Machiel: ok, not more backtracking needed

Lex: "Is the I concept/label you?" - The label "I" points to "awareness of existence". Sometimes in daily speech it refers to a body/organism to distinguish it from other bodies. (Synonymous with "Lex").

Machiel: So, are you awareness?

Lex: "Can it struggle?" - Disharmony can occur. A fight between two apparent entities, perceived as internal (one idea against another) or external (Lex and another bodymind) can occur.

Lex: It is tricky to say: "I am awareness", because of the label "I" still in the expression. But otherwise I would say. Yes. Awareness is my true and deepest nature.

Machiel: thats great, but we are not talking about ideas, what are ideas?

Lex: Thoughtforms.
Abstractions
Templates/models of reality.
of observed reality.
And these above are ideas about ideas.

Machiel: is awareness under your control? thoughts yes, look beyond thoughts, are you thoughts?

Lex: haha. awareness under my control sounds absolutely absurd.

Machiel: thoughts and ideas come and go, are you thm?

Lex: On a certain conditioned level I am thoughts. The idea of a person living in a head looking out from a skull and cotrolling a body is still present and convincing, even if I have seen it doesn't exists.

Lex: I see that there is a "clinging to mind".
At the same time I see nobody who clings.
I am not thoughts, but there is a love-affair going on with the mind.
Sounds weird, no?

Machiel: it is not about what is the most convincing, neither about convincing yourself.

Lex: right. the essence is that I see it is not true.

Machiel: it is about what is true right now

Lex: Not exactly not true, but a distorted view.
Lex: True right now:
Awareness + experiences.
Machiel: view is fine but is it your view?

Machiel: yes go on
Lex: If I say it is my view you say: there is no you.
If I say it isn't that's a lie too.
It is a viewpoint. I can zoom out from that.

Lex: Your questions pull me back into thinking.
Lex: And when there is thinking it is still true, but not realised/realising.

Machiel: no more huh? true now is it always like this?
Lex: I don't know. I only know about now.
Lex: For "always" I need to project, think.

Machiel: are you pulled back into thinking or are thoughyts continuing on their own?

Lex: Like in sleep probably no awareness / no experience.
Lex: ?"are you pulled back into thinking or are thoughyts continuing on their own?" "I am pulled back in thinking" - is the conventional way to say: "thoughts are triggered", which is more correct to say, but somewhat awkward.

Machiel: isnt everything always happening now?
Machiel: sure but thoughts dont need to be stopped to see your not thought.

Lex: everything / always / now - all concepts.
I see there is only now. The rest is memory, projection, thinking.
I already saw that as a child and at a certain point it terrified me.
But of course that is a memory now.

Machiel: is there a thinker lex?
Lex: your = you are, I assume.
I see I am not thought.
Lex: Thinking is a miracle.
Lex: All seems to be clear, and yet...
I don't know what keeps me (?) from being satisfied.

Machiel: so is there a clinger of thought?
Lex: the clinger of thought is a thought.

Machiel: is there a you needing to be satisfied?
Lex: apparently...

Machiel: satisfaction, dissatisfaction, they begin and they end
Lex: the conviction:
this is not over until there is no more doubt.

Machiel: what r doubts?
thoughts will never truly be satisfied or grasp or get this
sinterklaas (santa) *heart*
once seen never unseen despite doubts.

Lex: So it's seen, but not realised it is seen, hence the doubts?
Could very well be....
Lex: Then maybe it is a matter of just giving up. To stop struggling. To Relex

Machiel: are you trough?
Lex: ??
Lex: I really don't know.

Machiel: is there a you to do the giving up?
Lex: Even if there would be a me, it wouldn't have a say in the matter.
Lex: I answered too quick...
Let me look.

Machiel: no rush :) take time, have a break, go away from computer
Machiel: open a window,
Machiel: what is really happening?

Lex: Many thoughts come up. A wall of thoughts appears. "Something" has problems admitting / really seeing there is no control.
Lex: what really happened was that a window opened.
Lex: fresh air streaming in.

Machiel: something?
Machiel: ok man keep that up
Lex: is not clear what it is. some counterthought, resistance. I'll look.

Machiel: got a moment?something came up here :)
be back in about ten minutes
very good, look for proof there, i cant prove it for you, whats really here what is only label, take a fresh look, like a your 5 years old again without all those concepts...
What was found lex?

You said there might be a counterthought resistance, but you also said you see your not your thought, something does not add up here...

''Lex: So it's seen, but not realised it is seen, hence the doubts? Could very well be....'' Doubt arize Alex, that is normal, they are just thoughts, are the doubts you{rs}?

Machiel: Whats up Lex:? Computer crashed? Silent retreat? Please respond...

Lex: Silent retreat indeed, Machiel , sorry I didn't tell you. Preparations took all the time...
Let's continue?

Machiel: Just respond, dont wait for me... silence silence noise noise what is the difference?

Lex: Found a belief: “I am in control of where I direct my attention”
Seen to be untrue. How many more of these slumbering beliefs?
They are all beliefs about an "I". It as if something (me?) knows when this process is finished. It is finished then and only then when it is crystal clear without a speck of doubt that there is no "me".

Lex: I've been meditating 3 days in a row. Trying to investigate who is meditating. Found none. I see no other way then to keep looking who or what is looking through these eyes, who or what is hearing trough these ears. Who is feeling these sensations, who is thinking these thoughts. And I already know by simple reasoning there is no-one or nothing to be found, but I feel a need to get it 100% totally clear.

Lex: Any questions I left unanswered?

Elena: Lex, you are in a non-dual trap. We do very focused work here for the shift of seeing happened, not by reasoning in the head only. Look up here: http://completehumanity.blogspot.nl/2011/11/direct-pointing-and-who-am-i-inquiry.html

Lex: The difference between the two approaches is clear. Not only theoretical, but in practice/experience. I don't see how they "bite" each other. If I look "Who am I, who is seeing,hearing,feeling?" I see there is no one to be found, just looking, hearing, seeing. If I focus on being there no self, I realise there is no self, no personality, no center, no controller. There must linger some hidden expectation that there must be more, a shift has to happen, seeing has to become deeper, more clear. I don't know what is keeping me from acknowledging that this is all/this is it.
Time to take another honest look at my expectations.
Stories... Ideas...Concepts...
...
One has to go through the fear of dying, otherwise it is not genuine.
Once seen it is like coming home.
There is a gate, but once passed you will see there is no gate.

Machiel: Who am i is easily taken as finding your real identity, but look if there is an identity which can be anything. There is the fear of not being, of being nothing so you keep looking for a new identity, to become this, to keep doing instead of looking if there is a self, without doing anything. Fear of death might certainly be, but is it your fear? If its there doesnt it come and go spontaniously? So allow fear to be, invite it to come closer, look, is anything behind? What is it protecting?

Lex: There is no fear at all. This is exactly what I find suspicious. There SHOULD be a fear of not-being, dying, losing control. There isn't.
I see no gate either.
There is no identity other than a memory, idea, conditioning or (an impersonal) sense of self.

Machiel: Is there no identity to your understanding or do you see this? There is a big difference. What should be is not that important, what is seen is. There is no gate just a metafor for seeing if there is a self or not. Nothing needs to be done or changed for seeing to occur, just one honest look...

Lex: I don't see the difference between understanding and seeing.
I understand there is no self, because it is a only concept.
Together with understanding comes a realisation that this is true.
I see no other way, then to keep this insight in mind and just live and look and see what unfolds.

Lex: Dishes need to be washed. I'm going to watch what happens. If someone washes the dishes or that the dishes are being washed. Or watched.
Lex: Doing the dishes:
1. Body doing the dishes fully automatic.
2. Mind running stories in the mean time.
3. Sense of self.
Attention shifting between the three mentioned above.
Also a sense of identification with the thought process, the feeling/idea: "I think", "This is me thinking here". Not in words, literally, but rather as a subtle feeling.
Some thoughts about ME coming up. Judgements, shoulds and shouldn'ts. Seeing how these thoughts are restricting and untrue as there is no identity to whom they apply.

Lex: My dissatisfaction might be that I want to get rid of these stories about me. Which is also one of these stories of course.

Machiel: Seeing if everything happens without a doer/controller is something else than the realisation that it has to be or should be so.
Machiel: all there1 2 3 are there perfectly so, that is not going to change, is this sense of self really pointing to a separate self, separate from the whole?

Lex: Seen. I realise there can't be a controller, but it is not (yet) seen directly. If I observe the apparent controller it seems to consist of a kind of tension, a subtle worrying that something has to be done, that something is not right or something should be different.

Machiel: Story continues but is seen to be a play, everything continues the way it did but seen your not doing any of it. Preferences stay, thoughts just going on, actions are taken, experiences happen is a you doing it?

Lex: This sense of self is kind of continuous "background hum" It is just there. The "sound of existence". If it is a pointer, it points to existence itself. It is awareness of existence. It is actual quite blissful to concentrate on it, I notice. :-)
Machiel: everything is the way it is, it has to be seen the way things are already. i wondered if youve seen this?
The secret you

Lex: Seen it long time ago. Will rewatch later. Time for actions. Keeping the awareness of no self.

Machiel: Yes the sense of self is always herefor functioning to happen, for protection of the body. right awareness of existence is always there, but is it your existence? is it your awareness?
Machiel: Is there a you to keep the awareness of no self? There is a self or there isnt, not more or less depending on how aware you are. So nothing can obstruct, no matter what is happening there is a self or not, watching this clip happens or not, thoughts about it happen, is it true there is no you? look. look at the clip as if your the subject of investigation.

Lex: “And the ones that claim “I’m not there yet” are often still believing in the story of someone who can awaken, still seeking some ultimate, fictitious point in the future.” - Scott Kiloby.

Yes, that is an excellent description of what is happening here.
So, there is no self. Seen quite soon in the process, but the aard van het beestje is to doubt and doubt and doubt. As Alexander Smit said about "witnessing": “Where there is a witness there is bound to be a suspect”.
So lets state clear and without doubt:
THERE IS NO SELF.
The confusion was this idea that once seen, this was the ending point.
Well, it is not. It is not even the beginning of something new.
It is even a bit desillusioning. Life goes on. There is just no more taking serious of all self-referencing thoughts, like "O, I really fucked up this time", "She doesn't like me", "I am enlightened" , "I'm not really there yet", etc.
And maybe even once in a while in a certain mood, particularly if strong emotions kick in, these thoughts will be taken seriously again for a while.

Machiel: true, doubts do not say it is not seen. But who will take the thought seriously or not? What also seems to happen is holding on to a final identity as consciousness. No self = no identity at all, anyway, take some time, tomorrow some questions.

Machiel: Ok, here are some questions, dont think too much about if answers are right, just answer how you see things, allow words to flow out...
- Is there a 'you', 'me', 'self' or 'I' at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
- Explain in detail what self is, when it began and how it works.
- How is it to see this?
- How would you describe this if someone who is not into spirituality asked you about this no self stuff?
- How is it to see this?

Lex:
Is there a 'you', 'me', 'self' or 'I' at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Only as a concept, conditioning, pointer, social tool.

- Explain in detail what self is, when it began and how it works.
Pfffff.
I must have been about 1-2 years old: Some desire wanted to be fulfilled and didn't manage to control the part that normally fulfilled desires, so it was suddenly seen as split off. Later that part was labelled "mummie", as it referred to itself like that repeatedly. Mummie insisted to label the desiring part "Lex", and later this Lex was taught to refer to Lex as "I", to confuse matters even more.
In this way this sense of separation was coupled to the (natural and impersonal) sense of being.
Now this "I" had to be protected, especially against other "I"s, which were to be referred to as "you" or "he" or some name, as if it were special objects. Lex also started to gather a "personality", mainly copying traits from others that seemed to be succesful in being liked.

- How is it to see this.
I really can't describe. The difference is very subtle, yet profound. For sure it doesn't comply to all stories and ideas about enlightenment:
No fears, no fireworks, no "melting away of the ego". Well actually there is, but it goes slow and naturally and feels like it can take many years or will never be complete, but that is OK. It's impossible to unboil an egg. I-centered thoughts emerge, even identification, but are just seen and (mostly) not taken seriously.
There is an overall feeling of OK-ness, but that can very well be an after effect of the 3-day retreat I was in last weekend. This OK-ness is probably just the "sense of self", which is quite a nice feeling if it is not associated with separation.

- How would you describe this if someone who is not into spirituality asked you about this no self stuff?
Actually that happened yesterday with a good friend. :-)
I pointed to a beer bottle and asked him: "What is this?"
"A beer bottle"
“Now can you in the same way show me your "self"? ”
He saw he couldn't.
That simple.
(I have to admit that this guy is sensitive, honest and intelligent, at least at that moment)

Machiel: ok man, id say thats clear, let me ask some other ''guides'' to have a look, maybe others have some more questions, we'll see :)

Lex: Answering the questions did cause some deepening as well. I would like to add that there is now a kind of vulnerable not-knowing and less thoughts. On the one hand a desire for some after-care and at the same time the realisation that no "help" from the outside is possible nor desireable. The rest is an "inside job".
Until now the "free fall" is a gentle downhill sliding.

Machiel: any questions arize you know where to find me :) ''after care'' group unleashed is also awaiting.. See i forgot one question - can you point out what 'made you see'?

Lex: I have to go back a long time, can't really remember, because it was very early in the process. Realising that I already had seen it was the tough part. I'll see if I can find it and come back to you.
Lex: If there was a moment of revelation it was when I saw that all concepts are invalid and "I" is one of those. The post with the big question mark. What made me see, where this insight came from, what caused it or triggered it I really can't tell, neither the exact moment it dawned upon me. Attentive observation of body/mind might have helped to evoke it.

Machiel: alright, let it sink in a bit, talk to you soon

Lex: Man, I'm so curious what life will bring. What is next now.

Machiel: it will bring what it will bring :) some more questioning: this seeing there is no self, how do you relate to it, where do you come into the picture? is no self witnessed?

Lex: I go completely blank on these questions.
My first reaction:
Huh?
Ok, I'll have another look and see what comes up.

Lex: No self is known, but not witnessed.
Lex: - this seeing there is no self, howdo you relate to it -
I am that in which the "sense of self" appears. Or/and what it is made of. Or whatever.
hm, maybe doesn't answer the question. Is more a reaction to the question than an anwser.

Machiel: is that personal?
Lex: Are you kidding?
Machiel: haha, well haha :) question pops up answer too..
Lex: It's intimate, but not personal. An open intimacy.

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1 comments:

Consius zei

HI,

Thanks for this post. It reminds me of someone who helped me online with questions about I and the doer and stuff. I am so fascinating about the doer. I can't let go of looking into that every day. 6 years of heavy seeking/reading/ watching videos expressed in 1 year.

The Toe

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